If you want to be a great leader to others, you should be an exceptional leader to yourself. Today’s guest is the award-winning author of Claim Your Swagger: Stop Surviving and Start Thriving. Jennifer Sukalo shares her secret of being an exceptional leader of self to be a great leader to others. Jennifer dives into the importance of self-awareness and self-care for leaders. She explains how feeling comfortable in your own skin fuels your ability to navigate leadership challenges. You'll also learn why filling your own cup is essential before pouring into others. Plus, Jennifer reveals how aligning with your inner joy fuels your career journey.
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Jennifer Sukalo - Leaders On Leadership
I have a very special guest I want to introduce you to. Her name is Jennifer Sukalo. Jennifer, welcome.
Thank you so much for inviting me. It's such a pleasure to be here.
Thanks, Jennifer. Let me tell you a little bit about this tremendous lady you're going to hear from. Jennifer is a TEDx speaker. She is an award-winning author of Claim Your Swagger, Stop Surviving and Start Thriving. She has over three decades of experience working with leaders of all levels, including CEOs and Fortune 500 companies.
Claim Your Swagger: Stop Surviving and Start Thriving
Jennifer's work is centered around helping people reshape the way they think, act, and behave. Her influence has positively impacted over 50,000 leaders globally. Jennifer's science-based educational foundation in behavioral change and wealth of practical knowledge set her apart as a distinguished expert in leadership and personal growth. She is a sought-after speaker, advisor, and she has a proven track record of delivering impactful presentations and workshops across 18 countries. Jennifer, we are honored to have you share your wisdom leadership with our audience today.
It is truly an honor to be here. I love being able to share my message with other people and plant seeds for future growth and development.
I love to give our listeners a little bit of a context to where we connected. Jennifer and I are recent sisters, we just found out. We got connected through Bill Forrester, the tremendous Bill Forrester. I’ve got to give Bill a great shout out. He connected us, we're both in a new platform called CEO Zones. When Bill connected with Jennifer, and Bill knows me from way back, he said, “You two ladies have to meet each other.” We connected on the phone, I think it was last week or the week prior. I said, “Jennifer, please come on my podcast.” She immediately jumped on the calendar. I can't thank you again, because you know, Jennifer, with busy people, if you don't act on it right away, a lot of times it slips off your radar.
What gets scheduled gets done. It's just the way it works.
The gentleman I had on in the previous episode said the exact same thing. That's a Tremendous Leadership lesson. I love it. Jennifer, let's talk about leadership. My father, Charlie "Tremendous" Jones, one of his most downloaded and listened to speeches was called The Price of Leadership. We all want to be the leader, don't we? But there is a price to pay. In this speech, he talks about four things that you are going to have to be committed to be a true leader and not just a leader in name only. The first of those is loneliness. We've all heard that it's lonely at the top. Heavy is the head that wears the crown. Jennifer, can you unpack for us, perhaps in your career or your decades of leadership experience, what does loneliness look like for you? Maybe some words of wisdom for some of our listeners if they are in that season of loneliness.
I Keep My Own Company
It's an interesting point when I think about loneliness, because it's funny, I was thinking about this just the other day. I have always been an introvert by the nature of how you define where you get your energy. I get my energy from the inside, not necessarily from being around other people. I love to do speaking events, and that is amazing, but I have to go recharge my batteries afterwards. All through my life, I've been very comfortable being by myself.
Even in, for example, high school, my younger sister was a freshman when I was a senior, and she used to be in tears because she'd see me walking alone around school. It wasn't that I didn't have acquaintances or friends. It was just that I was really good at keeping my own company. When you think about loneliness, I've just been one of those people that I don't really experience maybe the same aspect of loneliness that other people do. I think it's because I keep my own company well.
I also think there's an element of helping people get to that place as the better we know ourselves, the more we understand what we need if we're at times of loneliness or how we can better keep ourselves and be our own best friends in those times where you don't have a lot of other people around. It's maybe an interesting dynamic for me around this, because I'm not sure I've ever really felt extremely lonely. As I said, it's partly because of just really knowing myself. I've worked a lot. I've worked really hard to get to that place in my life. Just being really comfortable in my own skin and comfortable keeping my own company has enabled me to not necessarily suffer loneliness as much as maybe other people have.
The better we know ourselves, the more we understand what we need.
That's such a great perspective. Bill Keller, who I interviewed, he said the same thing. He flat out said, “I'm a loner. I had some friends.” I think that's really interesting because a lot of our audience are entrepreneurs or entrepreneurs emerging. That's a beautiful thought because you have to be okay. I love that. If you're going to throw a party, you should be your own first person on the list because when you're comfortable with yourself, and that is really what leadership is, that self-awareness. I love that you talked about really good at keeping your own company and comfortable with your own self, because there are going to be times when you have to walk alone. You better like the person looking at yourself in the mirror and say, “That's fabulous.”
I know you said that's by nature, but do you think is that something that we get more in touch with as we grow older? What are your thoughts on that for somebody that may be like, “Remember the younger versions of ourselves? Maybe we didn't always feel that way.” What do you think if there's somebody out there?
I think there's a couple aspects to this. One, yes, I think we can become more comfortable in our skin as we get older if we've chosen to do the work around the self-awareness. People who are really comfortable in their own skin and comfortable keeping their own company, I believe, have done the work to understand who they are, what they need, what they don't need. Really good at setting their own boundaries, adept at understanding what makes them happy, what brings them joy, what they can let go of, what they don't need, understanding and owning their own worth so they don't constantly need this external validation of other people.
There's a lot that can be done if you're willing to explore, do the work, and really find out who you are and what you're all about. When you do that, you can really be comfortable in your own skin and go, “I don't really need those other people right now.” It’s great to be around them at those times when it's a wonderful event or something that you want to spend time with family and friends. That's wonderful. There are also times where being by yourself is some of the best time you can spend.
I love that you teased out the difference between fellowship and fulfillment, because they are very uniquely distinct, and one shouldn't be contingent on. They should be mutually exclusive because there won't always be people there for you. There will be times in your life where you need them, or we’re not meant to be an island, but we still have to have that duality of we need to be around people, but we have to be okay on our own. Thank you so much for unpacking that. That's a beautiful way to look at loneliness and understanding it. I love it.
We talked about loneliness. The next you talked about is weariness. Leadership is not for the weak. You got to be strong. My dad would say, “Tracey, there are going to be some people pulling way more than their weight. There's going to be a lot pulling less. You have to be the strongest person in the pack. How do you, Jennifer, stay poured into so you can continue being at the top of your game and pouring out into others?
Pay Attention To Yourself
There's a story that came to my mind as you were talking about pulling your own weight that I just would love to share really briefly before I go into answering that question. My husband and I went dog sledding one time. It was an amazing experience. The person who was running the dog sled, the woman, she said, “Are you watching what's going on with the dogs right now?” We said, “What do you mean?” She said, “Do you see how the one line is a little slack with that dog and how all the other dogs are barking and yelling at that dog? It's because that dog wasn't pulling its own weight. The rest of the dogs were saying, hang on a second. We all have to do our part to make this work.” It was such an amazing story that translated so well into leadership that I love bringing it out. When you talked about the pack and being the strongest in the pack, it just made me think of that experience.
When I think of weariness, one of the things that is incredibly important, which I find so many people don't take the time to do, is to pause periodically and take note and take stock of where you are and how you're feeling. We are so busy. We're so overscheduled these days. It's almost a badge of honor, it seems like, to be the busiest person, “I'm so busy.” If you look at people's Christmas cards or Christmas letters and they rattle off all the things that we've done throughout the year and you're thinking, “Where were the pause moments? Where were the times for reflection?” It doesn't have to take a lot of time. If we don't periodically check in to see how we're doing, by the time it becomes a big issue, it's now something that's much harder to recover from. You're not performing at your best in those moments.
For me, one of the biggest things is really just paying attention and taking those moments and opportunities to check in with myself and think, “How am I doing?” This is a real-life example. I woke up in the middle of the night last night, couldn't go back to sleep, had to read, get my brain working on something else. When my alarm went off this morning, I said, “No, I have to go back to sleep.” I knew and was paying attention to what my body was telling me and opt out of a few things that I was going to do today and opt in to taking care of me because that's where I can be at my best. It's really paying attention to the signs and the signals that were sent, and then taking action on those to do what's right for us so that we don't get ourselves in a place where we become so weary we can't perform and do what we need to do.
Do you schedule anything? That's great to listen because your body will tell you your spirit and soul. Are there times when you do carve out specific times to reorient and recalibrate?
Absolutely. Next week, in fact, I'm heading to the barn. If you notice behind me, you'll see my horses behind me. These are my kids and I call them my four-legged therapy. I carve out and I literally look at my calendar and they're quite a ways away from me where I'm keeping them because of how well they're cared for. It's just the best place for them. Carving out and literally saying, “Next week, I'm taking three days and I will only be at the barn. That's it.” That's all I'm doing. That's my time to reflect. That's my time to check out from everything else that's going on. I literally don't do anything during that time except be. The horses have taught me so much about being present, being in the moment, letting go of stress, and what's going on with you. That is an example of things that I literally schedule into.
Can I give up three days? It's difficult, but it's so important. It makes the time when I come back into the office that much more effective. It's important to schedule these things. I usually schedule in my workouts. I will schedule in typically breaks throughout the day for me to just walk away from the computer. I tend to walk while I work. Sometimes it's just walking or changing scenery. For a lot of people, it might be getting outside for just a few minutes, just getting out of your environment and getting out in the nature. That's the other thing that being at the barn helps me do is reconnect with nature. It doesn't have to take a long time, but physically scheduling it in is absolutely critical. Just like you are setting a meeting with somebody else, thinking about it and knowing it is not the same as doing it.
Exceptional Leader Of Self: Thinking about it and knowing it is not the same as doing it.
Horses are one of my favorite things. You talking about the dog sledding thing, no wonder I love dogs so much. They're my ideal follower. I love the mentality of the pack. I love it. What kind of horses do you have and how many?
I have three Arabian horses. They are literally truly amazing. They're such intuitive and spiritual beings, really, that people don't understand. Yet each one has a very distinct personality. One would literally crawl in your lap if he could. He is such a love. The other one is super playful and mischievous. Then my mare is she is the diva of the barn because she's the only female in the entire barn, and she runs the whole place.
I love it. It should be. That's awesome. Loneliness, weariness. The next topic he talked about was abandonment. Having been around animals, the word abandonment typically has a negative connotation or fear of abandonment or you have abandonment issues. In leadership, my dad would always say abandonment is becoming incredibly hyper-focused and stop thinking about what you like and want to think about in favor of what you ought and need to. This is like hyper pruning. Jennifer, you do so many different things. We talked a little bit about the stage you're in right now. How do you continue to hone? No one to hold them. No one to fold them. No one to walk away. No one to go to the barn. How do you really stay hyper-focused on the best and highest use of your time right now?
Where Do I Get The Most Joy?
One of the things that I allow or encourage or focus on to help guide me is where I get the most joy. Where I get joy, where I get excited, those are the activities where I am truly leveraging not only my strengths and the talents and the gifts that I've been blessed with but also where I think I'm doing my best work. It’s probably the most valuable work that I can be doing. For me, that's one of the clues. I'm a Gallup-Certified Strengths Coach as well. When you think about and look at some of Gallup's work around strengths and using our strengths, they talk about clues to where we're really tapping into them. One of them is this notion of flow. The time just goes by and you don't really need to think about the steps involved. You just naturally do them.
It's easy for you or you have glimpses of excellence and you go, “Wow, how the heck did I do that?” These are some of the clues. For me, it's also about, as I said, joy. Yes, there are activities that have to get done just because they need to be done and they have to be checked off the list. I work on focusing on those areas that bring me joy more often than not. I can always get the tedious things done. It's just a matter of where are we prioritizing our time? It's also okay to try something. Even if it doesn't work out, there's learning to be had in everything. The only time we fail is if we don't try or we stop or give up.
Even if it doesn't work out, there's learning to be had in everything. The only time we fail is if we don't try, we stop, or we give up.
I would rather deal with failure than regret. That regret is haunting to me. I love that. I love your focus on joy because joy is different than happiness. It's different. It's where you dial in your convictions and your highest purpose. When as little kids at the Vacation Bible School, we talk about the joy down in our hearts. That's where it originates from, and I love that that's what you dial in because that's, as you said, where you're doing your best and your most valuable work. The joy will let you know. Even amidst the circumstances, joy goes beyond all the externals. It’s wholly intrinsic.
I believe you and I spoke about this just recently when I just did a recent keynote. It's in those moments that they're almost out of body experiences because you are just the joy you're feeling, the energy surrounding that type of moment when you're truly doing what you're meant to do, when you're really leveraging the gifts and talents that you've been blessed with to your fullest capacity and touching people's lives and making a positive impact on the world. There's nothing like it. You can't even describe the emotions and the feeling surrounding it. Those are the moments that I think people really need to hone in on and seek out, and that's going to help you prioritize and really laser focus on where you should be spending your time.
To that point, for the listeners out there, I feel like I'm pulled different ways. To your point, when you hit that, you just know.
It is very, very apparent. It is not something like, “Did it just?” It hits you in the face. You know what's going on.
We talked about loneliness, weariness, and abandonment. The last thing he talked about was vision. We've all heard without vision, people perish. Vision is one of those things where we have all these tests now speaking about not so much Myers-Briggs or StrengthsFinder, but other things where it’s like, “Are you a visionary?” I remember growing up thinking, I'm not a visionary. My dad was a very pragmatic realist. He's like, “Tracey, vision is nothing more than, A) A thing that needs to be done, and then B) finding out a way to make it, to enact it, because otherwise, it's strategic thinking with planning but there's no execution. You just talked about your TEDx speaking, and I know you're moving full-time into your book and doing this. How do you continue to hone the vision of what's next?
Vision Can Be A Work-In-Progress
It's interesting, a lot of times people will ask me, “What is your vision? Where do you see this going?” For me right now, I'm in a state probably of continuing to evolve what that vision looks like. What I would love to say to people is it doesn't have to be fully formed at all times. It can be a work in progress, as mine is currently right now. You have a general idea, perhaps, of what you'd like it to be, but as you start on the journey, sometimes you realize, “Wait a minute. This is taking me in a slightly different direction that I didn't even know I was going to go in. Now, that's where I need to be.” Some of it is a little trial and error and to figure things out. You might misstep along the way and go, “That wasn't exactly what I thought it was going to be. I don't really want to go down that path. I don't want it to go that direction.”
I think there's an element of allowing for you to continue to evolve what that vision looks like. Once you have those ideas, to your point, just thinking about them is not the same as doing them. You have to take steps to go, “What will it take for me to move forward in that direction to make that happen?” The other thing that I think is really important about is not to limit yourself when you're thinking about the vision. When I used to work with leaders around innovation and around influence, we would talk about a current state and desired state, and we'd always have them start with the desired state. Blue sky thinking of what is the art of the possible, and how do you go there and create something that might in your logical mind seem not realistic or seem unrealistic?
If we start by focusing on our current state, we tend to limit ourselves by what is instead of really reaching for what could be. What I do encourage people to think about when you're thinking about your vision is think bigger than you could ever imagine, because we are capable of so much more than we even know. If we don't put it out there, we don't actually reach for it, we'll never achieve it.
We are all work in progress. What's your goal? We all have to know. I'm one of those people as a middle child, I'm very much like, “It's all good. I get the whole we want to get to great.” I love that you talk about that because people get really hung up about that. I'm like, “Are you doing great work with excellence? Are you getting clarity every day? Yes. Then you're a visionary.” I think we make it sound like it's this thing that's beyond mere mortal men and women.
We think of personas like Steve Jobs or somebody like this. We can't possibly know. It's a learned skill, just like anything else. It's about creating ideas and having that perspective of where could we go? To your point, Tracey, it's then about what steps is it going to take for me to try and get there and break it down into, now what can I start today? What can I do today to move forward in that direction?
I hope that encourages some of our listeners out there. You're moving in the right direction by listening to this podcast. I guarantee you're moving in the right direction because you did one thing today that's going to unlock that stuff. Jennifer, I really appreciate you bringing that. We all are works in progress until our last breath. Charlie would say that production to perfection. You'll never get it completely 100% right this side of heaven. Isn't there joy in getting closer and closer every day? We covered loneliness, weariness, abandonment, and vision. Anything else, Jennifer, that we have not touched on as far as leadership that you would like to bring up? Then I want to get to talking about your book and your TEDx Talk.
Exceptional Leader Of Self: We all are works in progress until our last breath.
One of the things that I've always loved to help people understand is in order to be an exceptional leader of others, we first must be an exceptional leader of self. I think so many people forget about that aspect of it, that leadership truly begins with self. We are first and foremost the leaders of our lives. Unless we are stepping into that role completely and fully, we can't be the best leaders of others that we possibly could be.
To be an exceptional leader of others, we first must be an exceptional leader of self.
It begins with self. You've got to love yourself. You've got to understand yourself. How can you possibly understand other people if you don't even understand yourself?
It's also how you bring your best self to your leadership role, because it's not about being like some other leader. Don't try and mimic somebody else and their leadership. You have to figure out, “Based on who I am, how can I be the best leader I can possibly be?” How you and I, Tracey, might lead could be very, very different. We could both get exceptional results, but the approach and how we go about it is going to be different because of who we are and what we bring to the table.
That's where authentic leadership shows up. Then when you're authentic, then you resonate with your authentic followers. Leadership is so individualized. It's about individuals. It's not about groups. We come together, but there's that personal. Like you said, your different horses. Every follower in your organization is going to have a different relationship with the leader. It's really important to just be able to understand that. You can't just put one hat on for everybody. It's not going to work.
No one size fits all. It's got to be appreciating the uniqueness of each person, and how do I adapt and adjust my style to fit them w, to reach them here they are? How do I unlock their potential? You can't do any of those things if you haven't first figured out who you are and how you show up as a leader and how you want to show up as a leader.
Jennifer, talk about your book, Swagger, and your recent TED Talk. Is that out yet?
It just came out this week. My TEDx talk just came out this week. You can look it up on actually just typing into Google my name and TEDx Talk, but you can look up Who Stole Your SWAGGER? That's the title of the TEDx Talk. The subtitle is How To Step Into Your Most Important Leadership Role. It's literally hot off the presses, just got published this week. Super excited about that. It was certainly a milestone moment for me in my professional speaking career, and one that I hope to do at least another one at some point. We'll see about that part. Really excited to share that with everybody.
So far, the message has resonated so well with people. It really speaks to this point of what we just talked about, about you being the leader of your life. I close the talk with encouraging people to take their first step by asking two very simple questions. One is, “How satisfied am I with my life today?” Two, “What am I going to do about it?” Because as the leader of your life, you are the one who is in complete control of that. It is certainly up to you with where you go and where you take your journey and your life from this point forward. It's been really, really well-received so far. Super excited to see where it goes.
My book, Claim Your Swagger, is out and ready. It came out in May. It's won multiple awards already. Again, it’s been really well-received. I'm so excited about the various groups of people that it's been reaching and touching, from people who are maybe at university age, just getting started, figuring things out. I have also been a repeat guest on the Feisty Side of Fifty podcast the woman there, Mary Eileen Williams, she has said, “What you talk about resonates so well with people who are more mature in their lives and looking at their next chapter. Where do we go from here?” The skill sets that I teach and offer, there are activities, daily reinforcements, things for you to do the work.
Swagger, I always like to tell people, is an acronym. It's not just a word. It's not just a practice and a lifestyle. It's an acronym and it stands for Self-Worth, Appreciation for your strengths and limitations, Gratitude for how your life experiences have helped shape who you are, Grounded in your core values, Empowered to overcome your self-limiting beliefs, and Renewed through a greater focus on your passion and purpose. When you do that work, that's when you claim your swagger and you really become that person who is completely comfortable in their own skin, knows who they are, and can fully step into that leadership role as the leader of your life, but also as an exceptional leader of others.
Thank you. Jennifer, what's the best way for people to get in touch with you?
They can go to my website, SwaggerU.com. It's short for Swagger University. On the website, there's a contact form. They can reach out to me directly there. They can find me on Instagram, on Facebook, on LinkedIn with either my name and/or SwaggerU, and they'll be able to find me in any of those locations. I would love to hear from your listeners and have them reach out and ask questions, or let me know how I can best support them on their journey.
Jennifer, I want to thank you so much. I love it. You kept saying it, leader of your own life. That's the highest form of leadership. Everything else takes care of itself. You just know exactly what you're called for. Thank you.
Thank you so much for inviting me and allowing me to share this message with your listeners.
You're welcome, Jennifer. I look forward to many more and we can do a spark and swagger together. You know what I'm saying?
I love it.
Spark and swagger. There you have it. The SNS sisters. For our tremendous listeners, just remember, you're going to be the same person that you are today, five years from now, except for just two things: the people you meet and the books you read. You met the tremendous Jennifer. You're going to get her tremendous book, and you are going to swagger on to your next tremendous version of yourself.
If you like what you heard, please be sure and hit the subscribe button. Do us the honor of a five-star review and share this with some of your other tremendous members of your tribe that are working hard to pay the price of leadership. Speaking of which, thank you so much for paying the price of leadership. We wish you all the best. You have a tremendous rest of the day.
Important Links
Bill Keller – Past Episode
Who Stole Your SWAGGER? – TEDx Talk
Feisty Side of Fifty – Jennifer Sukalo’s Episode
Contact Form – Swagger U
Instagram – Jennifer Sukalo
Facebook – Jennifer Sukalo
LinkedIn – Jennifer Sukalo
About Jennifer Sukalo
Jennifer is a TEDx Speaker and award-winning author of Claim Your SWAGGER: Stop Surviving and Start Thriving. She has over thirty years of experience working with leaders of all levels, including CEOs and Fortune 500 companies.
Her work is centered around helping people reshape how they think, act, and behave, and her influence has positively impacted over 50,000 leaders globally.
Jennifer’s science-based educational foundation in behavioral change and wealth of practical knowledge set her apart as a distinguished leadership and personal growth expert.
She is a sought-after speaker and advisor with a proven track record of delivering impactful presentations and workshops across 18 countries.